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The same gunpowder has different energy?Paradox or disaster?
[楼主] 作者:羊狰狞  发表时间:2012/06/14 23:16
点击:1067次

 

A gun fixed on the disk which can rotate freely,
after first shoot, the disk Angular velocity is ω, Kinetic energy is ΔE1=Iωω/2,
after second shoot, the disk Angular velocity is 2ω, Kinetic energy increases from Iωω/2 to
I2ω2ω/2, the growth ΔE2=3Iωω/2:
Why :
different bullet gunpowder does do different works?
and how about the tenth bullet?......

 

 


willem2
Posts: 1,060

After the first shot, the gun will be moving backwards, so the second bullet will move slower than the first, so there is more kinetic energy left for the gun and the disk.
Report Post

 

different people will make different conclusion:
1,the people A sit on the disk will find the bullet has the same velocity;
2, only the people B standing by side will agree with you;
3, but another problem appears : after analysis people A will statement that
environment's tempreture is lower than people B's calculation.
E0=Chemical energy of gunpowder
E1=bullet's Kinetic energy
E2=disk's rotating Kinetic energy
E3=heat energy absorbed by environment
E0=E1+E2+E3 every bullet has the same E0
CAN WE CONCLUDE THAT:
in different frames, the temperature is relative?

Is anything wrong?
Equivalence principle?
In any energy conversion process we should put the saddle on the right horse.
Another example:
Two ship A and B move towards the moon, now ship A slow down by jetting gas forward .
In A's opinion the ship's kinetic energy decreases and converts into other kind of energy,so does the gas's internal energy;
But in B's opinion ship A is speeding up but not slowing down! Ship A's kinetic energy is increasing up. Ship A need absorb energy !
Would you like to tell me :who is the loser and who is the winner or receiver?


Willem2:

The disk isn't an inertial frame, so you can't expect that energy is conserverd. For the people on the disk, the first bullet would suddenly appear to get more energy when you fire the second bullet.

===

You are brave enough.
But the first bullet has gone with the wind. Can energy be transferred through remote sensing? Like Telekinesis ?
And every moving body can entrust different porters carrying different energy share -- even uncertain value --corresponding to different observers in different frames just in order to match their relative velocity?
My God!
======

mfb:

Energy can change by changing your coordinate system - which observers on the disk do (even if it is so large that the rotational motion is nearly linear for the timescales involved).

Ship B will see a high energy of the ejected gas, as it is now quicker than ship A.


Each reference system will observe different energies for different parts of the same system, and even a different total energy. That is fine. Every system will see a conservation of this energy in its own frame.

==============

Would you like to tell me in different frame, the temperature is relative?
==========

mfb:

Temperature is usually defined in a reference frame where the object does not move. Therefore, it is pointless to discuss "temperature in a different reference frame".
In addition, I do not see the relevance here. You can look at the energy content from heat - this is the same in all reference frames (at least without special relativity).

================

E0=Chemical energy of gunpowder
E1=bullet's Kinetic energy
E2=disk's rotating Kinetic energy
E3=heat energy absorbed by environment
E0=E1+E2+E3 every bullet has the same E0
The problem is the linear velocity is relative and angular velocity is absolute.
If people A find E1(a) is bigger than people B's conclusion about E1(b), He can only judge that E3(a) gets less share from E0.


After n bullets were shot the angular velocity indreased from (n-1)ω to nω--according to the law of momentum conservation;
And the rotating kinetic energy increased from I(n-1)ω(n-1)ω/2 to Inωnω/2: the growth was nIωω-Iωω/2.
The gun can be controlled to fire toward 12,3,6 or 9 o'clock direction in turn!

Let's suggest there is a wooden barrel containing the disk and sharing the same center axis.
Acording to the law of momentum conservation the barrel will gain the same size angular velocity with reverse direction.
What will happen? paradox or disaster?

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上一主题:哥德巴赫猜想的证明 下一主题:之所以沈建其等科班生如此坚信洛...
[楼主]  [2楼]  作者:羊狰狞  发表时间: 2012/06/14 23:17 

 [3楼]  作者:杨发成  发表时间: 2012/06/15 11:36 

请译成中文,英文对很多人来说,比较困难.
[楼主]  [4楼]  作者:羊狰狞  发表时间: 2012/06/17 01:06 

一把枪固定在可自由转动的圆盘上,
开第一枪后圆盘的角动量是ω,转动动能是ΔE1=Iωω/2,
开第二枪后,圆盘的角速度为2ω,转动动能从Iωω/2 增加为I2ω2ω/2, 增幅为ΔE2=3Iωω/2: ΔE2/ΔE1=3
开第三枪后,圆盘的角速度为3ω,转动动能从Iωω/2 增加为I3ω3ω/2, 增幅为ΔE3=9Iωω/2-4Iωω/2=5Iωω/2 :
ΔE3/ΔE1=5

开第四枪后,圆盘的角速度为4ω,转动动能从Iωω/2 增加为I4ω4ω/2, 增幅为ΔE3=16Iωω/2-9Iωω/2=7Iωω/2 :
ΔE3/ΔE1=7
……
开第n枪后,圆盘的角速度为nω,转动动能从
I(n-1)ω(n-1)ω/2 增加为Inωnω/2, 增幅为ΔEn=nIωω-Iωω/2 : ΔEn/ΔE1=2n-1

E0=每颗子弹所含弹药的化学能
Ea=子弹动能
Eb=圆盘动能
Ec=被环境吸收的热能
每颗子弹结构一样,可以互换。每次释放的能量恒定,但是后一次射击时圆盘索要的能量却大幅增加:
要么Ec越来越小,但这是有限度的;
有人指望从旁观者的参照系观察到的子弹动能逐渐减小,退一部分给圆盘。甚至自作主张地认为即使将Ea部分视之为负数也不妨!
这好办,再假设圆盘外套着一个可以同轴自由转动的木质圆桶,子弹依次嵌入桶壁。
按照角动量守恒定律,圆盘与圆桶的角动量应该大小相等,方向相反。
那么圆桶只有吸收到子弹的动能后才能将之转化为自己的转动动能。

这样一来,欠账越来越多:
不断增加的圆盘与圆桶的转动动能从何而来呢?
[楼主]  [5楼]  作者:羊狰狞  发表时间: 2012/06/17 01:10 

收到几个质疑。
1,开第二枪后,圆盘的角速度会略大于2ω,因为失去两颗子弹的质量。没错。
2,相对于圆桶而言,第二颗子弹的速度略小于v-2ωr,因为圆盘后退而圆通前进,再加上圆桶嵌入了两颗子弹,转动惯量增大。也正确。

但实际上这两点不但无法替现有理论辩护,反而增加了经典理论自圆其说的难度:
按照理论,圆盘与圆桶的角动量必须每次射击、嵌入后保持对称:大小相等,方向相反。前者不得不增大而后者不得不减小——两者间的差距会持续增大。

中间细节考虑得再仔细也无法改变最关键的矛盾:
子弹的火药所包含的化学能是恒定的,第1颗子弹分配给圆盘的首次转动动能E1=Iωω/2
而第2颗子弹要将比E1多两倍的能量分配给圆盘——E2=2Iωω-Iωω/2=3Iωω/2 E2/E1=3 其角速度才能又增加ω
第3颗子弹要将比E1多四倍的能量分配给圆盘——E3=3Iωω-Iωω/2=5Iωω/2 E3/E1=5 其角速度才能又增加ω
第4颗子弹要将比E1多六倍的能量分配给圆盘——E3=4Iωω-Iωω/2=7Iωω/2 E3/E1=7 其角速度才能又增加ω
第5颗子弹要将比E1多八倍的能量分配给圆盘——E3=5Iωω-Iωω/2=9Iωω/2 E3/E1=9 其角速度才能又增加ω
第6颗子弹要将比E1多十倍的能量分配给圆盘——E3=6Iωω-Iωω/2=11Iωω/2 E3/E1=11
其角速度才能又增加ω
第7颗子弹要将比E1多十二倍的能量分配给圆盘——E3=7Iωω-Iωω/2=13Iωω/2 E3/E1=13
其角速度才能又增加ω
……

这些计算还没把圆盘因依次失去子弹质量而应该增加的角速度——从而需要更多的能量份额才能支撑起来的角速度增量考虑进来!



[楼主]  [6楼]  作者:羊狰狞  发表时间: 2012/06/17 10:48 

实际上,不仅圆盘索要的能量越来越多,与之对应,圆桶勒索的能量同样依次越来越贪婪!
可怜的子弹!
家底透明,每月工资恒定,小孩的饭量却日益倍涨,物价也涨——看来上帝之手无处不在哟!


偶像告急,被粉丝们吹嘘得天花乱坠的俩经典定律居然一直在人迹罕至的密室里互掐,对外却假装相敬如宾,一起盘踞在龙椅上接受朝拜。

要不是摩擦力与空气阻力拼命护驾,尽力掩盖真相。自身难保的学术教堂哪里容得下三千门客哟!
[楼主]  [7楼]  作者:羊狰狞  发表时间: 2012/06/17 14:53 

更荒唐的是:

射完第五颗子弹后,旁观者A认为:圆盘的角速度为5ω,顺时针旋转,转动动能为25Iωω/2;
圆桶的角速度是5ω逆时针旋转,转动动能也是25Iωω/2。(姑且假设两者的转动惯量大致相等),
两者之和为50Iωω/2


而从圆桶的角度,观察B认为:自己不动,而是圆盘在以10ω作顺时针旋转,那么它的转动动能就是
I(10ω)(10ω)/2=100Iωω/2

又是一本糊涂账!
射完第十颗子弹以后呢?A认为两者之和为200Iωω/2;而B认为自己不动,圆盘的动能是400Iωω/2.
二十颗呢?
……

这些子弹到底是魔法师还是超人呢?



[楼主]  [8楼]  作者:羊狰狞  发表时间: 2012/06/17 15:08 

肇事者就是W=F*S
随着圆盘的线速度随角速度增大而增大,反冲力作功时,子弹从击发到出枪口的时间t是固定的——这是由枪的型号决定的。随着射击次数的增加,反冲力F存在、持续的时间t内圆盘的位移依次递增:S=V*t=r*nω*t

照传统思路,反冲力F每次所作的功也就会依次递增。所以圆盘每次的动能增量自然也就依次见涨啰!

却没想到一点: 这一部分增加的动能必须由子弹的化学能转化而来!

化学能不比势能:重力势能本来就藏在相对行程中,海拔越高,势能储量就越足。照搬到非保守场就出洋相了!


只有在保守场中,保守力作功时,势能与动能的转化才是符合能量转化守恒的。
冲力与摩擦力一样,并非保守力。

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